In this episode, I have a conversation with my friend, Licensed Clinical Therapist, Emma Wood, about narcissism, triangulation, and gas lighting.
I share experiences from my second marriage with Emma to gain a better understanding of these traits and behaviors as they relate to divorce and co-parenting. Emma beautifully articulates:
Lastly, I share a triumphant (silly!) story of confronting the person in my life who I consider to be a narcissist. It wasn't until I had separation from her and rebuilt my confidence that I had the courage to say anything to her face. Low and behold... without my ex husband relaying messages between us or a phone screen to hide behind, she was timid and silent! Oh how I wish I had communicated differently with her all of those years I was silenced!
My hope is that as you make new friends and date, you will be cognizant of these personality disorders and manipulative behaviors so that you can make better choices than I did when faced by them. I'm so grateful I know what flags to look for now and I AVOID the flags at all cost. My daughter and I are enjoying a peaceful life and I won't risk disrupting that.
If you share life with someone similar to what we discuss in this podcast, my advice is that you seek tools, resources, and therapy to support you.
Emma's practice is Thalia Therapy and Wellness Centerlocated at the Saint Lukes Multispecialty Clinic- Mission Farms. https://www.thaliacenter.com/
In this episode, I have a conversation with my friend, Licensed Clinical Therapist, Emma Wood, about narcissism, triangulation, and gas lighting.
I share experiences from my second marriage with Emma to gain a better understanding of these traits and behaviors as they relate to divorce and co-parenting. Emma beautifully articulates:
Lastly, I share a triumphant (silly!) story of confronting the person in my life who I consider to be a narcissist. It wasn't until I had separation from her and rebuilt my confidence that I had the courage to say anything to her face. Low and behold... without my ex husband relaying messages between us or a phone screen to hide behind, she was timid and silent! Oh how I wish I had communicated differently with her all of those years I was silenced!
My hope is that as you make new friends and date, you will be cognizant of these personality disorders and manipulative behaviors so that you can make better choices than I did when faced by them. I'm so grateful I know what flags to look for now and I AVOID the flags at all cost. My daughter and I are enjoying a peaceful life and I won't risk disrupting that.
If you share life with someone similar to what we discuss in this podcast, my advice is that you seek tools, resources, and therapy to support you.
Emma's practice is Thalia Therapy and Wellness Centerlocated at the Saint Lukes Multispecialty Clinic- Mission Farms. https://www.thaliacenter.com/
Welcome to man shopping with Stacy, where I share my real transparent dating and life experiences for your amusement and inspiration. I'm your host, Stacy weer, and you are listening to episode 40 taking the high road part two in this part series. I've shifted a little away from my norm. I try really hard to share optimistic, uplifting stories, to bring more joy to singles like me, but it's hard to find joy in life. If you don't take some time to work on yourself, to learn from your past mistakes and to understand, and really process some of the experiences that we've had in life, whether it be from your childhood or marriage or whatever. So this is my small attempt at shedding, some light on some experiences that I have been through, um, in part in my second marriage. And as you would've heard, if you listen to episode 39, we are particularly my friend, Emma Wood, and I, um, we're focusing on narcissistic qualities, triangulation in communication, and lastly gas lighting. And I did some extensive talking and sharing, um, about my personal experiences, um, regarding narcissism and triangulation. It was certainly not, um, intended to be any sort of smear cam and pain at all, but bring awareness and empathy for those of you who have experienced similar personalities and experiences in your life. Um, and also to hopefully just draw some attention to these all to common behavior pattern as we are all out there, um, in the dating world, making new relationships, watching for flags and being cautious as we enter new romantic relationships. So in this episode, in particular, as you will hear my conversation with Emma, she sheds a more a clinical, um, non-biased position as a licensed clinical therapist, some of her experiences with clients, and she also provides really great explanations and some guidance on how to navigate some of these issues. And after you listen to our conversation, which I hope and think you will find incredibly helpful and enlightening, um, I will share just a simple explanation or example of how I personally experienced gas lighting as well. Um, just to bring some realness to, um, to the podcast, like I always try to do so I would like to welcome my friend, Emma Wood. She is a licensed clinical therapist with Talia therapy and wellness center here in the Kansas city Metro area. And she works with individuals, couples, families, relationships, and couples therapy. And Emma, if you would just tell us a little bit about your practice and some of your passions in therapy.
Speaker 2:Yes. Absolut. Absolutely. Um, thanks for having me on here, Stacy, and, um, yeah. And no, you, you covered it as far as working with individuals, couples and families. I also specialize working a lot with women's issues and with eating disorders and addiction and the underlying issue that come with that trauma. And then from there, PTSD, anxiety, depression, and so on. So yeah,
Speaker 1:Well, you're doing very important work and I'm very, um, grateful for you for sharing your clinical expertise with us. This is new to me as you know, on my podcast having, having to license their, and I appreciate you so much because I would just love it. If you could shed a little bit of light on some of the personality disorders and things that can create, you know, conflict during a dating relationship, a marriage, um, and kinda shed some light, maybe on some of my own experiences, if you will. And as you discussed, I particularly would like to focus on, um, this idea of, you know, living with a narcissist or being in a relationship with a narcissist. And I feel like I told you that it's kind of a, this term of narcissism is maybe a little overused it's thrown around pretty haphazardly in the divorce world, in my opinion. But could you tell me, do you think narcissism is a spectrum of behavior or do you think there are, or could you share with us some really specific, um, behaviors that, you know, you would have to be displaying to be called a true narcissist?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think in my work in couples therapy, you know, when you have someone that moves more towards, you know, that N P D diagnosis, you know, narcissistic personality disorder, um, I, I still, I work with them and I value them and we're trying to break through their pattern. But the pattern that they struggle with is they're, they have these troubled relationships because they struggle with the empathy for other people. And when they struggle with that empathy, it's coming from a place of their low self-esteem and coming from a place of the way they were raised and their, their family of origin often where they didn't have a parent attune with them, you know, meeting some of their emotional needs. And so that's where it comes out in where they blame, they get defense they're reactive, and they really struggle with that sense of accountability. You know, being able to just say, Hey, I'm sorry, I'm gonna have empathy for this other person and be able to work through a conflict pattern in a healthy way. And so it leaves them often in these very troubled relationships. Um, and so it's, it's a tough pattern to break.
Speaker 1:It really is. And I've seen this, you know, play out in marriage and in parenting as well. And, um, in some of the stories that I shared earlier in the podcast, some of my personal experiences, the hardest stuff for me to deal with was this concept of triangulation by a narcissist. And it's a behavior like the communication in, within communication. Can you speak to that a little bit and why people do that and what it looks like and how to recognize it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. I think when a conflict pattern bring down, there's going to be triangles. And so, in other words, if those two people have a breakdown, they may manipulate through triangulation through a third person, and that triangle just keeps the dynamic toxic and stirring around. And so you've gotta de triangulate by getting one person directly with this other person, you know, one to one and get that vulnerability going that understanding because the triangle just makes it even more toxic. When you already have narcissistic personality disorder in there, then the gas lighting, the blame, the manipulation, it's just moving around that triangle, which you can't resolve it because it needs to go, you know, directly between this person and that person, you know, to create empathy and understanding and accountability and repair. It just keeps it toxic.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So, um, keep me honest here, because I wanna, I wanna look at this from two different standpoint. Um, and I'm going to use my own personal example as, as something to, to learn from here. So, um, as I've already explained, my ex-husband's first wife, um, was the narcissist in my life and she used my ex-husband her first husband as the go between. So that was the triangle. Um, what she would do often is she would make communication with me so impossible that she would have, or we, we would have to talk through my husband at the time. So for example, if I would, um, at the beginning of our marriage, if I would call her and say, Hey, you know, six o'clock doesn't work to meet with the kids, could we maybe do six 30? She would in turn, call my husband at work, you know, potentially crying, yelling, saying, you know, your wife is so hard to get along with this, isn't working, she's so challenging and not flexible. And I would bend over backwards for my kids, but she won't, you know, I can't work her. So she would, um, blow up, you know, any sort of communication that I had. She would screenshot things, send them to her husband, send them to my husband and disrupt everyone's Workday. So is that pretty common in triangulation? I'm gonna get,
Speaker 2:Yes. Yeah. I think in that pod, what you're seeing is like, obviously they, they had this, she was in this emotional divorce where instead of just moving to like a business type, you know, like we're letting go of the past, we're in a business relationship, co-parenting our kids together. Right. She was still acting out control and, and reactivity. And, you know, it comes from that place of needing to work on identity and work on self-esteem issues and resolving family of origin issues. And whether there was abuse or neglect or trauma, or what have you. And it, it just perpetuates that pattern of re and blame and control and it's. Yeah. And so you, you would've then felt that, you know, oh yeah. That dynamic had come over to you.
Speaker 1:Right. So I guess now, like looking back at, I mean, this was a, every other day, you know, so situation with, between texting and, and just, it was really just organizing schedules and some financial, you know, communication, things like that, that, that affected me, you know, and affected my daughter as well. But in, so essentially over the years, as you can guess, I just let it happen. I just backed off and I was like, fine, you deal with her. I don't want to anyway. So, so that's what happened. And I knew that that's what she wanted to happen was to not communicate with me, to take that power away and to continue to control my then husband, which she was master manipulator at doing that as well. Then over the course of time, it grew really hard as you can imagine to like, keep my mouth shut. Yeah. And, and not speak up because then what would happen is the two of them would make agreements or, you know what I mean? And I'm like, hang on here. Like I wasn't consulted at all. And it impacts our family life, you know, things like that. So I guess, um, for people that may still be in a situation like that, what is the best if there is such a thing best course of, because I ended up just, I, I threw my hands up and said, fine, I'll get out of this. But then I just grew resentful, you know, over time and, and off because I, I, cuz I had no say over, you know, what was happening in my own household essentially.
Speaker 2:Uh, absolutely. Well, I mean, I could see why you would be backing off because when you just, if she's like so easily slighted and then the rage comes and you know, I can see why you just got hopeless and wanted to back out. But I think like probably what you needed, you know, it's, it was a tough dynamic, three of you guys, but your husband, it would be you guys having direct conversations about your needs as, because you're in a partnership. Right, right. You're in your own blended family. Right. And so that partnership needs empathy and understanding and you know, what, what are our needs and then he's in a parenting relationship with his ex. Right. Which to, to your point, I think, you know, if she's not a, a stable person, I think it's good that you backed out and then okay. He can then deliver the co-parenting message and it wouldn't have been easy. I mean, he would've had to, um, you know, stay calm if there's, if he's on the receiving end of rage or blame or, you know, control, um, right. But you and him as a partnership, him delivering a message in the co-parenting dynamic with boundaries, you know, saying, Hey, here's what, on this end, we're needing, you know, and protect the, and the blended family on that side. But also considering, you know, the, the mother of his children, right? Like what are your needs on a co-parenting level? And then him trying to express those needs. And then honestly it's tough that once there's like that rage or the, he would've had just to get really bounded and say, you know, I'm gonna consider your need, here's our need, where's their compromise, where's their not. And trying to keep that co-parenting conflict pattern, like whatever he could control, right. Like in a healthy way, what can I change? What can I control? What can I not control? You know, let go of the rest, the go to the serenity prayer. Sure. You know, boundaries. And then honestly getting off the phone when it gets toxic, just, I'm not, you know, stop talking to me that way. We're not gonna be in this emotional divorce with reactivity.
Speaker 1:Right. And he he's actually, he, um, was excellent at avoiding the confrontation with her. For the most part, he was very good about staying calm, cool and collected poor appearing. So, but yeah, he, he, um, a very poor job of, um, holding his boundaries and, and communicating on behalf of us as a
Speaker 2:United
Speaker 1:Front, he would just literally do whatever she wanted. And so the, on us, their children and my daughter were very, very damaging over the course of time because they literally did not have an advocate. Um, I delegated myself as our combined three children's advocate, but I had no power because, um, my husband, I were not a United front, even though I felt he tried to support me. Um, most of the time I knew that he would, um, he would just, how do I just go along with whatever her means were because she was more difficult and that's what my there therapist would say to me. Look, it's easier for him to just go along with what she wants than, you know, and battle and battle you because you're reasonable and nice is what would tell me, you know, which, so he was just taking the path of least resistance. And I'm like, I'm the one he's married too. Exactly.
Speaker 2:Like leading that partnership. Yeah. Well I think that can often be the pattern when somebody's in relationship with somebody with that pattern, they will, you know, back down get avoidant because they see that person as well, maybe they're depressed or addiction issues or suicidal thoughts, or just know that they are coming from a, a place of, you know, a struggle. But that avoidance, to some extent it enables the behavior, right?
Speaker 1:Oh, it absolutely did. Right.
Speaker 2:And then the entitlement just gets greater. Right. Because then they have that entitlement, as part of that comes with the, the narcissism. I
Speaker 1:Love that you use that word because that resonates so strongly with me. The entitlement there was, you know, as you can imagine, as, as I was trying to bite my tongue, not send text messages, not speak, you know, when I saw her on a, at least weekly basis, keep everything to take the high road. I think that's what I'm going to call this episode. Cuz I was always just trying to take the high road. Yeah. Put a little smiley face on, but I broke, you know, a handful of times over the eight years and one of the times that I broke, um, and I've already told the story on this podcast episode, but I, I confronted her in a quick trip parking lot and cuz we were meeting to exchange some clothing and as I confronted her, um, she was literally her phone up to her face with my husband on the phone.
Speaker 2:Mm.
Speaker 1:And that sense of entitlement and I'll show you, I, you know, this it's us against you.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Was
Speaker 1:Like that situation was probably her most powerful moment, you know, during our
Speaker 2:Power and control saying, saying I'm because he is, you know, avoiding and because this is the, the difficult dynamic, but she's also then saying he's aligned with me. Absolutely. Like he's enabling me. I'm now entitled. He's aligned with me and what a tough dynamic, because then that's then that or roads the partnership between you and him. Oh totally. And that Alliance, which needed to be protected and then boundaries set with her
Speaker 1:A hundred percent. So do you see is, so this triangulation pattern, is it, is this kind of why we say during divorce, like don't put your kids in the middle, like between two parents or two grandparents. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yes. Triangles are pretty, I mean, it's just like a triangulation unhealthy. Yes. So when there's a breakdown between two people, there's a third person pulled in. Um, and the, the bummer of the triangle is whoever's being vented on in the triangle. So let's, if we make a parent child, the, the parents that are divorcing both are venting to the oldest child about the divorce, right. That child cannot fix anything between parent number one and parent number, you know, parent number two. Right. And so the third party just absorbs the anxiety and feels helpless and powerless because conflict needs to be, you know, dealt with between those two people. So your, your dynamic in that triangle, it would've been like, you know, you and your husband directly coming together and saying, okay, we're partner. Here's how we're gonna blend. Here's our values and needs. And this is what we're gonna go. This Alliance is gonna go recommend these things to this co-parent. And then he, with that co-parent he would deal with her directly, right. Consider her needs his, his needs compromise and meet it on that co-parenting level. But when there was a breakdown, it just, you know, you were absorbing a lot of powerlessness, helplessness, you know, frustration. And like you said, her resentment grows. And so then it needed to be okay, you and him, how do you guys get on the same page? Okay. Him and her, how, how can he get that co-parenting relationship as far as the part that was within his control, you know, healthy and, um, yeah. And so going back to the kid example, they, they need de triangulated out of that. Right. Cause it just creates so much anxiety.
Speaker 1:I will say I did that many times. Yeah. Um, starting when the kids were little because, um, pretty much all of the advice that you're given and common sense tells you to, you know, not talk about the divorce or a, you know, a new marriage or, or whatever that with the, with young children. Right. So the details, the dirty stuff, the hard stuff, um, don't talk bad, you know, about the co-parents to your children or within earshot. Um, because we all know that that makes kids feel bad. All of that was going on throughout the years that we were together beginning when I came into the picture even, and the tactic used, um, by, um, the ex-wife in the situation was she would tell my then boyfriend or husband, you know, that one of the girls said something about me. That's usually how it would go, oh, well she said, you know, that this happened and that she doesn't want to be around her anymore. Things like that. And I know this is common behavior too. Yeah. And I will say even when, um, the girls were five and seven years old, I, I was, I would sit down and talk to them individually and just say, I understand that this was a conversation you had with your mom. Can you tell me about it? Is that really how you felt? And I even when the girls so
Speaker 2:Healthy
Speaker 1:Were those ages had to say to them, this was the hardest part. And I don't know if I was right to do this because they were put in such a horrible, this was how they won their mom's F was saying bad things about me, you know, or complaining about our household or whatever. So I understood that. But what I would say to them is please just don't say anything at all. If it's not true, you know, you can agree with your mom, no, your head, whatever you have to do to get through those conversations. But please do not fuel her with lies or make stories up or say things you don't mean because I hear all of those stories and it hurts. It hurts my feelings that you would say that. And I don't, you know, do you mean it? And then they would cry and say no. And I'm like, this is just so crazy. But one of the crazier points of that is that it was just me having these conversations through the years alone with my stepchildren, because my husband, um, well he does, to your earlier point, he does struggle with an addiction to alcohol and he couldn't cope. He just didn't have the coping skills to be a part of those conversations.
Speaker 2:Yes. You know, I think, I think you bring up a good point where it's, if they're being manipulated on one end, do you then have the conversation on this end when, you know, there's like this rule, that's like, don't talk to the kids about any of these adult topics. Right. But if the kids are, are dragged into it on an adult topic on this end, you're having to have like a useful therapeutic, if you will conversation with them. Right. That's with
Speaker 1:Them from a loving place and a nonjudgmental and
Speaker 2:Exactly.
Speaker 1:Um, yeah. And I
Speaker 2:You're, you're, you're freeing them saying, Hey, I know you feel this invisible loyalty to mom. Yes. And you feel like you have to, you know, hate me, you know, in order to get mom's love and, and say negative things about me to loyal to mom. And then you're saying the healthy thing, you know, that you're saying to them is, Hey, you can love mom. You can love dad. You can love me. Right. And it's healthy for you to not have to say things you don't mean like you can be loyal to dad, me and mom, and be on all of our sides and you don't have to take a side and let's take you out of this dynamic where you're being used as a paw and manipulation and yes. You know, and, and so you hate, they have to have that conversation, but your, your, your motive is to free them from that. So then they, you know, they, they cry and say, no, it's not how I feel. And right. I wanna get out of this. And so free to love you, dad and mom.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And I guess that's what was so interesting too, through the course of time that these girls were and are I'm sure, just so resilient and they understood and saw all of
Speaker 2:This yeah.
Speaker 1:Happening at such young ages. They, I know that they processed it. I know that they understood, um, you know, exactly. They're so smart. Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2:They see all the totally they know so much. Yeah. They, they observe it
Speaker 1:All. They really did. And so those conversations really morphed, you know, over the years. But the one thing that remained the same is that when the girls were in our home, they were loving and kind, um, to me and to my daughter The whole time. Like it didn't, I guess in my mind, I'm like it didn't work. I mean, I know that their mom was on the other end, trying to brainwash them into hating and it didn't work even if they told her what she wanted to hear and everything. And so I also tried to acknowledge that with them, that I knew that the feelings that we had and the love that we had in our home was real, you know? And so, and
Speaker 2:That's beautiful.
Speaker 1:And so that's kind of what I carry with me. But, um, you know, unfortunately at the end of the day, um, my marriage to their dad obviously ended. And it really, I mean, believe it or not was not because of all of this stuff, it really was more about just the health and safety of all of us, because, um, because his addiction just became something that, you know, was, um, impossible to live with. And when that happened, I had a, I, there were several conversations toward the end of the marriage, but at the, and there was a conversation that I had to have with them. Um, and I just had to tell them, you know, they're teenagers at this point, you, I mean, it's been many, many years that we've all been a family. And I had to say, look, I'm, I'm the adult, it's my responsibility to protect you guys. And here's the deal. Your mom hates me now. Your dad is really mad at me. They do not want us to have a relationship period. End of story. They never, she never did in the first place, but now we've got dad. You know what I mean? Definitely on the other side of the fence too. So I just had to say, I, I can't call you. I can't text you. I can't reach out to you. And even in public situations, I can't be the one to come to you. So if you ever want to have any sort of a relationship with me at any point in the future, you know, obviously I love you. I'm always here for you, but
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:I, and when I have reached out Emma, oh my gosh, the whole world explodes. And so I, I can't,
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. It's gonna be, it sounds like it's blocked by the mom and dad. And so not being able to be that, you know, former stepmom that had an attachment with them, that you could still be a, you know, bonus mom, even post you divorce bonus stepmom. Sure. You know, and be a positive adult in their life. I mean, it's sad to know, you know, cause you probably attached to them, nurtured them, guided them, you know, when the years you were there and it's a loss for you and a loss for them, it's sad that, that couldn't, you know, that you couldn't have that relationship continue for them,
Speaker 1:For sure.
Speaker 2:Um, too many dynamics. And there,
Speaker 1:I guess, part of the struggle that I had with that, I mean, obviously just the loss and grieving the loss of the relationship and the love of my two stepdaughters and for my daughter.
Speaker 2:Um, yes,
Speaker 1:Because they were all very close and age and grew up together. And so now it's down to nothing. And then my struggle through the past couple of years has been, I don't want them and this is kind of selfish of me, I think, but I don't know. I feel protective of them. And I guess I'm worried that if they never hear from me because they don't, I don't reach out to them. I don't talk to them. I, I stick to the boundaries, but I have, I have put messages out there a couple of times. Um, I'm worried that if they don't hear from me with, of milestone events and things that matter in life, such as, you know, birthdays, Christmas, graduations, all of these, you know, things that, that are happening that they'll think that I never thought of them. And they'll be, you know, they'll be resentful toward me that you ne that I never try. You know what I mean? All these years that have passed,
Speaker 2:You're wanting to be available. Yes. But you feel like, you know, the parents are saying, you know, no. Right. And it blows up, but you want the kids to know that you were there. Yes. You know,
Speaker 1:It's a horrible struggle because I can't win. I mean,
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I am trying to convey birthday messages. Um, yeah. It doesn't work. What happens. I mean, what happened this year? At my stepdaughter's birthday, I messaged one of her friends on Instagram that I knew, well, watched this little girl grow up to. Yeah. I, I said, Hey, no expectations at all. You know, if you feel comfortable passing along a birthday message, I, you know, and let her know. I love her. That's, that'd be awesome. But you know, I prefaced it in everything. I was so careful. It blew up on social media.
Speaker 2:Oh
Speaker 1:Wow. My stepdaughter and her dad put out like public service announcements that I'm the most horrible human on the, on the face of the planet. And it had done something. I mean, like it I'm like, oh my God, I tried to say happy birthday. And I love you. And this is what
Speaker 2:Happened. Yes. It's so tough when it's like that. Just the blame, you know, goes back to that gas, lighting the blame when you were really from your heart, wanting to continue to be that husband figure your love. Yeah. Your love for her. But it sounds like she's not free, you know, by mom and dad, no. To be able to continue to receive that. Love, I, that's a loss, it's a loss for you, a loss for your daughter. Um, you know, maybe when they're older, you know, like
Speaker 1:S me and
Speaker 2:Her older that they'll reach out then, because I've noticed that when kids are out of the dynamic college, young adult, they then don't feel as caught into these invisible loyalties and more just like, okay, who, who do I look back and think, oh, that person loves me and was positive for me. And then they've got the freedom, you know, to make their own choices. But right now, yeah, they're stuck. That's
Speaker 1:What I've told my daughter too. I said, look, I would not be surprised at all if at some point, and I said, honestly, it may not be until they have children of their own one day and start really, really coming into all of this and understanding it. Yes. Um, but it's sad, but you did drop, drop a word or a couple words a minute ago that I wanna come back to. Um, and this will be kind of the last concept, if you will, that we talk about. Yeah. And it is, it's also, uh, it it's a newer word to my vocabulary or term. I should say that I learned whenever I was educating myself on my husband's, um, addiction to alcohol and it's gas lighting. Can you give us kind of some examples or ideas of what gas lighting is?
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. I mean, gas lighting is tough because it's when you know, someone's saying something to the person with narcissistic personality told, they're saying, Hey, I'm upset about this. Or this is what I'm feeling. And then instead of getting empathy, that person takes the vulnerability of what the other person shared twist. It turns it against them and ends up belittling them. And so your, your needs are discounted. And so it's really damaging emotionally on the person that's saying, Hey, I'm vulnerable. Here's where I need empathy, understanding. And then in turn, they get, you know, rage or blame are usually criticism, you know, verbal abuse. And then they're left in this vulnerable position of saying, I wanna be loved. I wanna be accepted. I wanna be seen. And instead of receiving love, they receive, you know, criticism in that moment or blame, or it turned on them. And it's really, it it's just for, for clients in that they, when they're coming in as a client, they're, they're spinning, you know, it, it really is confusing for them. And they're that's
Speaker 1:Yeah. I love that point. Thank you for saying that it is confusing. And you, do you see like doubt creeping or on your client's part? Yeah,
Speaker 2:Absolutely. They believe what the person's saying. And then they often think, okay, did I do that? And am I that person? And so that's the emotional abuse or the verbal abuse impact. So then their self-esteem starts to go down, but then it leaves them in this narcissistic dependent pattern where that person's guessing manipulating doing from their place of, you know, hurt people, hurt people, right? Yes. So they've been hurt. So now they're hurting this other person. And honestly, they're usually drawn to women that are, can be dependent, meaning the women that are maybe love too much or wanna give too much. And, and even the women, they may have come in secure, but they were a very empathic, compassionate person. And usually that narcissistic person is very drawn to a nurturing and, and narcissism obviously gonna be male or female. Sure. But is drawn to a nurturing partner because of their family of origin wounds. And so that person so easily, because they're empathic and compassionate then can move into self-doubt and insecurity to be like, oh, maybe it is me, you know, and question themselves because they're usually the more dependent side of the pattern, the giver, um, you know, just loving too much. Yes. So they often need boundaries. Stop talking to me like that. My thoughts, feelings needs are valid. You know, don't turn this on me, but it's very difficult for even a mature person coming into that relationship secure because they're beaten down and then they get confused and you know, their self-esteem goes down and then they're in a toxic pattern and it that's, that's, it, it, it impacts people
Speaker 1:A lot. Yeah. Yeah. You did a beautiful job of explaining it. Thank you for that. It is confusing. Um, you know, little examples, like to your point, I, I love to take care of people. I love to feed people and nurture yeah. And make, make people feel special. So oftentimes I mean, well, that's beautiful.
Speaker 2:It's
Speaker 1:A,
Speaker 2:It's
Speaker 1:A strength, it's a gift, but yes. Um, with the right, with the right individuals around you, when it's appreciated and everything, for sure.
Speaker 2:The boundaries.
Speaker 1:Yes. Yeah. But I would, um, I would have, you know, now we would call them like Pinterest parties, right? Like elaborate birthday parties for all three of our kids. It was important to me that all of them felt special and it wasn't just my daughter having birthday parties at our house. And it wasn't an option to combine our families at parties. So I would have parties as well, you know, over the years for, for my stepdaughters and not just birthdays, but, you know, have their friends together, whatever. And, um, at the, toward the end of our marriage, maybe late later in the, in later years, he started kind of twisting things around, um, like his first wife would criticize or, you know, say something malicious about the, the parties that I was throwing or the things I was doing for the girls. And she would twist it and say that it was just, you know, just, or the attention, or I just wanted people to think that I was a good stepmom or that I cared or loved the girls, or it was just for praise on social media. Yeah. Right. Projection like
Speaker 2:That image. Right. They because, well, a narcissistic pattern is often doing it from a place of insecurity for admiration. Oh, right. Yes. Like, right. And to be admired. And, you know, because of that sense of emptiness, they feel and not feeling good enough, whereas you, it was coming from a place of, okay, I'm not doing this for admiration or feel good enough, I'm doing this. So my kids feel loved.
Speaker 1:So one of the things that my husband would say to me at the time and arguments that we would have, you know, would ensue from this, he would, he would bring up this idea or a little bit of, um, question to me like, are you just competing with her? You know, when he, he would get tired of dealing with my feelings about being hurt by her or the effects of her, he would say, you know, well maybe, maybe you're just doing this to compete with her, to show her up to, to one up or with your own kids. And, and I'm like, who are you? Like, you're my husband, don't, you know, me better than, but then I would find myself later going, I'm not doing that. Am I, I mean, I'm not doing this to get
Speaker 2:That confusion.
Speaker 1:Right. I'm doing this start to get
Speaker 2:Confused.
Speaker 1:I'm doing this for the same reasons. I do this for my own daughter, because one, I love doing it. It's fun for me. I want them to feel special. But then I did because I had such disdain for her, my emotions would get wrapped up and exactly, I would doubt myself. And then I'm like, hang on a minute. No, that's not me. I, you know,
Speaker 2:Be able to come back out of that and know who you are, but it's hard in that dynamic when she's saying you're that. And he starts to question, you know, and then you're gonna be like, okay, there's two of people saying this to me, is this what I'm doing? And then really having to root yourself in your identity, being like, exactly, I know who I am. And that, that I, I'm glad we're closing, like on that topic of identity, because whether I think it's the person and the narcisistic side of the pattern or the dependent side of the learn, I think all humanity, like every, all, each individual's healing is coming into that identity, meaning, feeling enough, feeling worthy, to be loved. Um, the ability to like trust someone, the ability to be there for people, see them for who they are through their gifts, like your gifts of hospitality, you know? And in that partnership, we want more empathy and understanding. And I think if everybody does identity work, no matter where they are in the pattern, that's where the growth can happen. You know, whether it's going back to family of origin and saying, Hey, here's where I was abused and neglected. Hey, that's not my fault. I release that forgiveness. And then moving into feeling lovable and worthy, uh, the dependent person saying, gosh, I'm loving too much. I'm I'm giving too much. Or I shouldn't be talked to this way anymore or seem this way. You know, and I know who I am and I'm gonna protect myself, stand up for myself. And I deserve safety and protection and I deserve to be loved, you know? And so I think wherever the pattern people are in the pattern identity work really is like the root of it. Looking at family of origin, looking at who they are just coming into, you know, their enoughness, you know, Andrene brown. She speaks a lot on that topic. Yeah. You know that we're coming, coming out of shame, coming out of insecurity. Right. And Stacy that's what I love about you is just your, your courage to be vulnerable on this podcast. And you're doing it for your compassion and your empathy, and, you know, to spread kindness and help to others, you want your story to be used for. Good. And that's comes from that place of security, like not shame or insecurity, but you're enoughness to then wanna spread the love and kindness. And so that that's that identity work that I think is the healing for every person in the pattern, you know, that you really wanna get to hold. Miss is the hope,
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh. If you could see me right now, first of all, I'm teary. And then I'm also like, I have a huge smile, huge smile on my face. You articulate things so beautifully. And I just hope,
Speaker 2:Oh, thank
Speaker 1:You so grateful to have you because, and what a wonderful note to end on. It's a clear message that you just sent to everyone. I'm the dependent in this, in this scenario, in, in life. Okay. That's me. I'm just gonna, that's that's part of my identity. Um, I I've done a lot of work to your, exactly
Speaker 2:What you were saying. Yes. I can see it. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I came into my own at the very end of my marriage. I mean, it was so late. It was so late. I didn't address. I, I did therapy and that's it, you know, I did it, I, I read bene brown. I watched some, you know, Ted talks and, and YouTube specials and things, Netflix, whatever she was on. But I didn't really take a step back and examine myself, um, until the end of my marriage. And then all of these light bulbs went off and I was leaps and bounds by then ahead of where my husband was, who had done little to no work. And it was the first time in my marriage that I, I stood up for myself. I stood up for my daughter. I, I not only asked for change, I demanded it. And when it didn't happen, I held my boundaries. Then I did the ultimate hardest act ever. And it was separation, you know? Yes. And it's it didn't, I don't know that I would've been a strong enough human being to do that without all of the identity work that you're talking about. And here I am, you know, two and a half years later still do the identity work
Speaker 2:Still. It's a journey. Right? Totally.
Speaker 1:Totally. And for all of us, no matter which
Speaker 2:Goal
Speaker 1:In these scenarios, um, it was actually one of the things I said to my ex at the end, I'm like I'm spending hours every day, trying to get healthy and understand what's going on here. And he was doing nothing. You know, I'm like this isn't gonna work because it takes all of us, you know?
Speaker 2:Oh, absolutely. Well, and that's tricky because that's a whole nother podcast. Right. But when there's addiction and cut couples therapy, I have to address the addiction first, before you agreed even heal the couple, right? If there's drug or alcohol misuse, there's not that that has to get stabilized, you know? Cause that's the numbing, the escaping, that's the third triangle in the relationship, you know, you, him and an, you know, you know, so that's a relationship in and of itself. And so that's gotta get stabilized in order, then help the marriage because then people aren't functioning from a place of coping skills, healthy coping skills, right. To then be able to have healthy conflict.
Speaker 1:And what you're saying sounds like such a common sense to fix the addiction before you work on the, you know, relationship between the couple. But Emma, I, we worked with a couple of different people and got nowhere cause his, he was so masterful at acting like he had his together, that they would just start talking to us about our therapist at the very end of our marriage would start talking about how to, how to work on things between us. And I'm like, we can't like he
Speaker 2:Can't even,
Speaker 1:Yes. He can't even remember what I said to minutes ago, you know?
Speaker 2:Exactly. Well, totally, you gotta get that, that addiction stable because how do you, you, you can't even do healthy attachment with that in the mix. You, you know, because you can pour conflict skills and empathy and accountability and talk about all those concepts. But I mean, if there's addiction, you know, in alcohol drug misuse, that's the, the glaring obvious problem in the
Speaker 1:Room, right? Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Oh my gosh, you have been just an absolute joy. Uh, it's so amazing to listen to you. Like I can't wait to go back and listen again, because again, this is like, this was therapy for me. I thank you. Oh
Speaker 2:God. Oh my God. You're so welcome. Thank you for asking me to join you. Um, I just, it was great to connect
Speaker 1:So fantastic. And I know that this conversation will touch a lot of people in a lot of different ways. And I hope that it brings a lot of awareness to situations, um, and relationships that, you know, others can relate to and hopefully people will, you know, seek out some help and therapy and, and work on themselves, um, as a result of listening to this. So thank you so much.
Speaker 2:I sure hope so much. I do. You are so welcome and I just hope everyone just, we, we all need to be kind to ourselves and kind to one another. We, we need a lot of that right now. So hopefully we plant that seed and we can spread that
Speaker 1:For sure. Thank you so much, Emma.
Speaker 2:You're so welcome. Enjoy the rest of your day.
Speaker 1:Thank you.
Speaker 2:Bye
Speaker 1:Bye. Over the past, um, couple of days of, as I've been recording these episodes, um, it's kind of just brought everything back to the forefront. As you can imagine, this has definitely been therapy for me and yet another opportunity for me to learn and grow and recognize my own faults and my own contributions to some of the turmoil and struggles that I went through to take ownership that those were my decisions and also just to grow from it. And to know that that's not this isn't who I want to be going forward, and it's not who I wanna surround myself and share my life with and share my daughter with. Um, so I hope that as you have listened, you, you feel the same and maybe have learned and are able to grow from this. And maybe just, maybe this stuff has inspired you too, to learn more and, um, maybe to seek some therapy or read some books or, you know, whatever, Google, Brene brown at the very, if you haven't already, um, that's my hope for you because as I've, you know, listened back on some of these recordings myself, it's just so apparent to me that while I still miss my ex-husband, um, we had fun. I mean, despite all of this horrific stuff that you've listened to, like we had fun and we were in love and we had this crazy connection that somehow kept us together, like amidst all of this, you know, you know, for me, that was like a huge is like thinking back on this constant chaos in our life and drama and how hard it was, um, putting on like this smiley face. But somehow our relationship was really strong through a lot of it. And that's a lot to lose in life. And while I still like mourn that loss of my marriage and he was my best friend for a lot of years, he made me laugh almost every single day. Um, what I don't miss is the influence of his first wife, clearly on me, on my daughter, on like my friends who had to listen to me, complain and vent for years, like avoiding those toxic people and being able to set clear boundaries and never, ever having to deal with them again. I mean, that is a fantastic reward at the end of a, you know, years for most of us of, um, struggle and hard times. So if you're in a relationship right now with a family member, a friend, an ex, whatever, and you can set a clear boundary and literally like exclude them from your life. Let me tell you if that's a possibility, um, don't waste any more time. It is so wonderful. Living, a peaceful, calm, um, life over here with just me and my girl. I'm going to try to end this on a funny note. Hopefully you guys think it's funny cuz I do, um, with one more for final story. So after years and years of having this like real life nemesis, um, in my husband's first wife and never, ever hardly standing up to her only one or two times ever, did I personally con front her about any of this damaging she was doing to her own kids and my family for years. Um, after years of that, not seeing her and after I got divorced and all of that, I happened to run into her in public. You guys, it was a 12 boutique that my friend Brooke owns that my daughter now works at. I thought I saw a glimpse of her when I parked. And I went in anyway, strong, confident, walked in. She came out of a dressing room. I knew then that it was her. And I proceeded to just linger and watch. I watched her squirm. You guys. She was obviously uncomfortable in my, a presence for good reason. She knows what she's done over the years. And she also knew that I was a wild card. Now I had no reason to not confront her. I never used to stand up to her or say anything because I was trying to protect her kids from the backlash. That's no longer a factor. I have nothing to do with her children because she hasn't allowed it sadly. So I stood nearby, watched her check out, watched her say her name allowed to the girl who was, um, ringing her up, listened to her very quietly, give away her email address. And it was at that point that I purposely leaned over and gave a very clear look at her in her direction. She saw me from her periphery looked right in my eyes. And you guys, I, there were a million ugly, vulgar, bad things that I wanted to spew in her direction, but that's not me. I'm not a bully like her, not a name caller. I'm not mean. So this is what came out of my mouth. I don't know where it came from, but all I said was this. I said, it has been so great. Never seen your face. And she averted her eyes looked away and ignored me and the poor girl at the checkout that I did not personally know thought I was talking to her. Like she didn't know what had just gone on, cuz I, I was very loud and, and very, um, direct in my one line statement. I felt so brave. And she, so the young girl who was checking her out, looked at me and she goes, I'm sorry, what? And I said, oh no, I was talking to her. And I pointed at her. And again, nothing, nothing came out of her mouth. She didn't say anything back. She didn't try to bully me or anything. You guys, this is like my one shining moment in life with her. I, I had me back again, had my direct communication style back and my boldness and my confidence. It just took, you know, couple years of, of getting over and getting past all of that and having that reprieve from being in her presence. And I gotta tell you that felt really good as stupid and little as that is, it felt like the greatest redemption, uh, bur so on that note, thanks so much for listening to episode 40, taking the eye road part two.