Man Shopping with Stacie
Man Shopping with Stacie
Ep42 ~ I'll Have What They're Having- Can men & women be friends?
In this episode, my friend, Eric Reid, and I discuss the age old question... Can men & women be friends... just friends?
Our topics of conversation include:
- When Harry met Sally
- Siblings
- LGBT+
- Exes (itch scratched. But is it always? What about new relationship's feelings about it? Would you let a Friend tell you you can't have other friends?)
- Eric - Chicago - After heartbreak determined he could not (just) be friends with his ex girlfriend.
- Co-parents - How we've adapted to friendly / amicable rather than truly friends
- Hits you never see coming…
- New personality facets in your former spouse?
- “Castle in the sky” phenomenon
- Friendzone
- Currently: non-related friends where there's never been any sexual attraction or tension either direction?
- Really, does it matter if they can be "just friends" if everyone's being honest and needs are met? Not every relationship will "turn romantic"/sexual even if there's attraction / sexual tension. Question you must ask yourself is, are we both ok with that?
Personally, I'm a fan of that last paragraph above. Maybe the underlying tension, if it does exist, is healthy and normal. I mean, isn't part of the fun of having friends of the opposite sex that the feelings are a bit different sometimes?
Big THANKS to Eric for putting together our outline & steering this conversation!
Welcome to man shopping with Stacy, where I share my brutally honest dating and life experiences for your amusement and inspiration. I'm spreading a little joy and happiness to singles like me a little later in life, sharing tips and ideas for how you two can find more joy. I'm your host, Stacy weer, and you are listening to episode 42. I'll have what they're having. Can men and women be friends, ah, the age old question posed with a nod to a cult class when Harry met Sally, I can't take credit for this episode title. Nope. My friend, Eric Reed named this show and you are about to listen to a conversation between us, just a couple of friends. Okay. So I'm here with my friend, Eric, and we are going to dive into this hot topic of can men and women just be friends. And funny enough, I mean, we are just friends and we were actually introduced to one another through a mutual friend, but also through to have divorced over 40. So Eric, would you like to speak to that? Maybe give a little introduction on who you are and how we met?
Speaker 2:Sure. So, uh, my name's Eric and I am, uh, in my mid forties and, uh, recently went through a divorce it's, uh, almost coming up on a year now as April. And, um, I, around the time that this started playing out, uh, I'm mutual friend of ours mentioned that Stacy was, uh, a, a big part of this group divorced over 40. And I was like, I don't know, but I guess I'll check it out. And as I looked into it, I'm like, oh, this, this mission seems really interesting. It's not a really about dating. It's really more about people and their experiences and kind of coming together and finding support in that and, uh, having people to talk to and, and find your tribes so that they so week, so, uh, really enjoyed that and then getting to know Stacy has been phenomenal. So, uh, glad to be here. I have two, two young kids in elementary school. Um, got a new house, um, continuing with the same job that I started right before, uh, right as the pandemic really kicked in in March, uh, April, May, 2020. So there you go.
Speaker 1:Ah, awesome. Thank you so much. And I didn't realize you are just coming up on a year. So I have been so incredibly impressed watching you navigate life over the past, you know, um, what has it been maybe eight months maybe that we've known each other, something like that. Um, you've really just, um, done everything with poise and grace and embraced kind of your new status. I think from, you know, from my point of view and it's just been, uh, joy kind of watching you come into your own and find happiness despite, you know, the, the hard stuff that we all go through as we, um, come out of divorce. So, well, I really appreciate that.
Speaker 2:Thank
Speaker 1:You. Yeah. Well, thank you for your introduction and I am lucky enough to have some help on this podcast episode and I am so grateful for it. I usually put an outline together, but Eric put together a beautiful one, so are gonna kind of work off of some topics. And the first thing that Eric sent me, which I just love is the movie when Harry met Sally. I mean, that's the whole premise, right? So I,
Speaker 2:To me, it's, it's just, that's always been one of my favorite, uh, love stories and the way they open it up with interviews with, with couples and all of their anecdotes and stories, uh, you know, the chemistry between the two of the, the main actors. Fantastic.
Speaker 1:It is fantastic, but I have to admit that this is what I remember. Uh, oh, that's like the only scene. Like I was 11. I looked it up when it came out. I'm like, oh my God, that's my takeaway from the whole movie I had to like refresh my memory on what the, a whole plot was.
Speaker 2:Stacy. I don't know about that. I think, uh, that's a tone episode in and of itself. Right, right there.
Speaker 1:So the, obviously the storyline of the movie is this whole topic of can men and women just be friends. And what does that really look and feel like when you're in the midst of it, is sex always some sort of underlying tension or, you know, guiding light in the relationship or is it not a factor at all, you know, sometimes, or is, you know, how, how does it relate to both men and women? So that's why you're here obviously is to share your own perspective, your own experiences, as I clearly can only speak from mine. And I love it that the next topic that you have down is siblings, because I have an older brother and you,
Speaker 2:I have a, uh, I have an older brother and a younger sister, so I am definitely a middle.
Speaker 1:And so growing up for me with an older brother, I, I mean, I am so glad that I grew up as a little sister because he taught me, you know, a complete different perspective of the world and opened my eyes. I joked to things like when we were kids like BVAs and Butthead and Metallica, and like lighting things on fire and gross jokes and be tough. He, you know, so this is why you
Speaker 2:Get along so well with, with men. Right? Take
Speaker 1:Me, I think so. I mean, I seriously, I just sat on another podcast. I seriously grew up riding dirt bikes, playing with, you know, fake guns. And I mean, that's my childhood and like playing wiffle ball and, you know, rough and tumble kind of stuff. But as I did grow up with a bunch of boys and my, you know, my brother and his friends, I gotta say it did start getting weird, you know, come middle school and high school. And yeah, there was some, there was some tension between his friends and me. He was, you know, cuz we were in school together.
Speaker 2:Well, uh, the way I was looking at it from the, the sibling aspect is, um, really, I didn't wind up. My, my brother was four years older, my sister four years younger. Um, and I wound up having this situation where I, I got to see how they approached their dating lives and, and they were very different and they're both very different from me. So all three of us really have a different approach, I think to that, which is interesting. But you, you know, you pick up on those things, you, you internalize them a little bit, but also I pointed out because I have a sister and we are, you know, it's a man and a woman. Right, right. Obviously I don't have any sexual chemistry there. Right. Obviously there's one example. Um, but
Speaker 1:It's a great example. If,
Speaker 2:If we take that to the next level, also, you gotta pull your focus back possibly and, and think about this, not just from your own perspective and maybe a, um, social majority perspective or whatever, but you know, from, from lesbian gay community, bisexual, whatever, this whole assumption that all men and women are gonna have, have, uh, an ingrained sexual attraction, uh, uh, against that those lines is kind of bogus. Right. That's that's sure,
Speaker 1:I think so first
Speaker 2:Place, so, you know, is, is that to say that lesbians can't be friends with other women or gay men, can't be friends with other men that aren't gay. I mean, it's, it's, I think it's a little bit of a, a weird proposition to assume that, but understand also where
Speaker 1:From,
Speaker 2:Because there is some sexual tension in a lot of male, female, or, or those types of, um, cross attraction, uh, relationships.
Speaker 1:Totally. I love that. So whenever I thought of the dynamic of siblings, I instantly thought, well, my brother and I are really close, so yes, that is a valid, you know, pure friendship. Right. And, and the experiences that I went through with him as kids and now as adults, I'm, you know, I just love the, the lessons that he's taught me and the things that we've shared in life together on such a, you know, obviously like a loving, deep relationship, um, is proof positive, same with, you know, other family members and things like that. But then the idea of like watching him navigate romantic relationships, you know, to your point was much different than how I did as well. And I do recall a time in high school when my brother totally got his heart broken. Yeah. And he was in incredibly upset and brokenhearted and you wanna know what I did?
Speaker 2:What did you do?
Speaker 1:I called the girl.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, you did, you know, you did.
Speaker 1:I did. I was like, what have you done to my brother? I didn't like call her names or like go off on her. But I was like, what happened? I need to know he can't talk, you know, but I just felt, felt that pain for him, you know, that, oh, that you, that I like am worried for my daughter now, you know what I mean? That you love someone so much, it hurts so hard, you know, it hurts so much to see them hurting. Yeah. Did you experience any of that? You had some, some, um, a bigger gap in between the ages of your brother and sister too.
Speaker 2:Like I said, we all had very different, I think, approaches to dating and, uh, and mindset. Um, I don't know how much I should get into it, but it's, they're just different approaches, but we'll leave it at that. Um, no, I get it. So I think what, what I learned was a little more peripheral. Um, obviously you, you still care deeply about, um, your siblings as you see them go through different types of hard things, um, and how they learn from it and move on. My sister actually went through a divorce, uh, years ago and it, it was pretty difficult, uh, divorce. And, um, that was one of the first experiences I would say that I had, um, in my family real close like that. Um, I've had a few on the, on the outside, I guess, a little bit more, but, um, that was something that I learned from, and, and it was interesting to be able to talk to her later, after going through my own divorce, um, that, that was really kind of get, gave me a new perspective that I didn't have. And I was really grateful for that as well. Um, and, and I've learned a lot of things from my brother's relationships. He he's kind of had in some ways, a, a blended family, um, without being divorced. Um, so it's, you know, there's a lot of really great takeaways that you can get from people. And one thing I would say now, having gone through divorce is that it is really hard to understand it when you're kind of sheltered from it. Um, I, I don't feel like I, uh, had a really negative step, but I always felt like, oh gosh, that's too bad. Right.
Speaker 1:Don't
Speaker 2:Know the, the circumstances. And sometimes it is, oh gosh, too bad. But, uh, but it's just now having gone through it and having some people that I was really able to lean on and, and it support from, I, I understand how much, uh, how important that can be. So if you've got those friends in your life, going through those types of things, just trying to be there for them can be, uh, hugely important.
Speaker 1:I think that's a really good point. I think in our society, especially in the United States, our tendency is to feel pity. Oh, I'm so sorry for you. When sometimes it's like, good for you. You like, that was the right decision to be healthy and happy and whatever, but we rarely congratulate people in the United States. Well, and there's, there's, you know,
Speaker 2:Also that, um, well, who did, what, who, who messed
Speaker 1:This up? Yeah. Oh, blame wrong.
Speaker 2:You know, I didn't even know this was a thing. Well, my gosh, shock, you know? And, um, you know, that may be part of it, but, uh, I, you don't want that to be the whole thing. You don't want your, your whole reaction to be go, Ooh, what happened there? You
Speaker 1:Gimme the
Speaker 2:Scoop. I feel for you. Uh, hopefully it was good. Maybe it wasn't, but I'm here for you. If you, if you need it.
Speaker 1:I think that's really great takeaways. And sometimes we do kind of have to learn from our own experiences or those really close from us to know how to be able to serve and help others. So, absolutely. I mean, we're, we're all still, I mean, if you're like me, you're still learning every day about this stuff. So not me all figured out. Right. You got, you're an expert. Now's
Speaker 2:Kidding.
Speaker 1:If you have any questions about healing from divorce, just call Eric. He's got answers. I'm kidding. I know you, uh, yeah. Right. And you don't want that either. Cuz we all, we all have a gazillion questions and things we're still working through. Right. We're working through. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, next on the list to talk about our Xs. So we could talk about this in the frame, you know, of, uh, or reference of, you know, past husbands for me, wife, for you, or just ended relationships. Right. So do you have anything you wanna contribute on this front? Well,
Speaker 2:So I was looking at it originally from this lens of can men and women be friends. And I guess where my head goes immediately is, uh, am I dating someone or, you know, married to someone, some sort of significant relationship. And then I have these female friends. And is that okay? Right. So that's, that's my immediate
Speaker 1:And
Speaker 2:I have run into this many times because I do have female friends and, and I think pretty much always have. And
Speaker 1:So
Speaker 2:What I immediately think of is, oh, how, what situation does that put that other person in this assumption of monogamy and this sort of, how, what does that look like? And are you threatening them and under what circumstances is, is it okay and so on? Um, so I think there's a little bit of this. Um, well, Hey, the, it has already been scratched where X is. It's all good. Um, but then is it really always, the H has totally been scratched, I mean, is any left over, maybe it could happen. And so I could see that sort of sexual tension causing frustration and insecurity for people. Um, but I also have always had this really strong fr uh, a feeling, um, that even within monogamy, we need to chill out. All right. Like, like don't be trying to tell me who I can be friends with. Great. And I'm not gonna do that with you. Um, I always go back to this idea. I'm sure a lot of people don't think it holds water, but would you tell your friend whom they could be friends with? Great. Would you say no, no, no, no, no. I don't like Joe, you better not be friends with Joe. That is baloney. Right? Right. No, you're not like that's. No, you're not telling me that I can't be friends with this other person. Right? No, if we need to talk about ground rules or what is gonna make you comfortable or, you know, what feels like disrespect to you? Those are all legitimate conversations, but I don't think it's okay to tell somebody that they can't be friends with someone, even if they had a relationship with them before that was romantic or what have you, or, or a serious committed relationship. So that's one of the, I love,
Speaker 1:Love that angle that you're going with this conversation because it comes up a lot. And obviously with people who, um, I think it comes up maybe more later in life, I maybe, okay, let's put, let's put it this way. I'm gonna, I'm gonna take that back. I think it happens when we're young, when we're in high school and we're insecure and jealous and still learning. And then I think it, these issues, um, could have a tendency to creep backup as adults when we again have been hurt. And you know what I mean? And, um, we're feeling insecure or unsure of ourselves or navigating these new waters. I think it all kind of, I really do think I'm living through my teenage years again sometimes because all the same just keeps coming back. Um, but I, to your point have caught myself a time or two, um, like let's say I have not been as you know, in any super deep, meaningful relationship. My rebound was as close to that as I've come and since then I've just dated. So even as I have just been in these, um, you know, fairly short lived, you know, dating relationships, I have found myself in text messages or in conversation it a point to tell a man like, oh, I have a happy hour to go too. Oh, it's with my girlfriend. You know what I mean? Or, or like, so that he doesn't wonder. And then I'm like, why do I do that? Because I do hang out with a lot of guys too. Not that I go to, like, one-on-one happy hours a lot with other men just for, you know, but as part of a group or whatever, but is funny that I have felt the need to kind of preface it a as to not, um, you know, make them have any concern or anything right. When I don't owe them anything to begin with.
Speaker 2:I mean, there's that, that, that social construct, that social norm of, uh, getting to monogamy as soon as possible, I think is, uh, is a pretty common thing in, in a, our society. So,
Speaker 1:Uh, yeah. And unfortunately, I mean, that's all I've ever lived. And so it's very hard for me to like, remind myself where I'm at right now. Like, yes, Stacy, you're not in a relationship. You're not in love with anyone. Like you can do whatever you want just because you went on two dates with someone doesn't mean that you have to explain self. Um, but it is something I've seen in other people's relationships, marriages, and just relationships that they're threatened by, you know, a friendship and those, you know, I think it's very telling of probably an unhealthy relationship when that occurs, um, that someone would worry about a friendship, you know, because typically if you're in a, a great relationship, you don't have those concerns or try to put those limitations on the other person. Do you think?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I, um, I don't know. It's, it's, it's interesting. That's for sure. It it's very interesting.
Speaker 1:Well, I mean, you said like, who would do that? Like what kind of friend would tell you, you can't be friends. Right. I knew girls in high school that wanted to be monogamous, you know, like, and it wasn't always with me, but sometimes I was the peripheral friend, like, Hey, do you wanna do a sleepover tonight? And they're like, uh, so, and so will be if she doesn't get invited too, you know, I'm like, well, she can't be your only friend. Oh, she tries to be, you know, I mean, there are those people out. There's
Speaker 2:Right. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Um, yeah. And in fact, my daughter had a friend that, that treated her that way and it brought up my old wounds from my childhood. And I was like, uh, uh, uh, no, uh, you're gonna take a little break. You're gonna take a little break from that girl. Cause that's not OK. Like she can't, she can't dictate who you hang out with.
Speaker 2:AB absolutely. I, I, I just, I think at some point you, you realize you get that strength of conviction that you're like, I I'm in this world, I have a relationships with people. We're not gonna lock that down to where you don't don't have that anymore. That starts to feel a little culty, right?
Speaker 1:Yes, exactly. It is right. It's controlling and mind games and drama that no one needs. Um, I would like to move on. What is, what is the story that you wanna talk about?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I would some of the story, like with the, the situation, um, I'm thinking about now, can men and women be friends? Well, what about someone that you did have a relationship with and then it has since passed out of that phase. Excuse me. And, um, so there was, uh, someone kind of earlier in my life and I will call her Chicago. That's where, uh, we met. Okay, cool. And, uh, things got very serious and, uh, we, we dated exclusively and then, uh, we lived together for a little while in Chicago and then we moved to Italy where she lived and, uh,
Speaker 1:Look at you go,
Speaker 2:Yeah, I I've, I've, uh, gotten around the, the global block a little bit.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I like it. You live in Europe a few times. So, um, but, but anyway, um, I, we were building towards something, you know, and, and it didn't work out ultimately. And so we were really deeply connected and, um, she was happy to stay friends and I thought I could do that. And I had done that in many other relationships before, but I ultimately found that I couldn't, my heart was just, uh, too broken. Uh, I was, I was too hung up, um, on that, uh, what I call the cloud in the sky. This is a phenomenon I've now experienced a couple times in my life where you both were at least at one point building towards this thing that you saw and you're constructing this life together that you see as completely real. Yeah. And you're in it together, but then at some point your past, start to diverge and then it officially diverges. And you realize that that, that castle is not gonna be finished being built. Oh, right. Yeah. And, and so, and then you're like, but no, that's my castle. That's that, that was it. That's where we were going. Yep. Yep. And, uh, and so there was this, this sort of disconnect and, um, I, you know, identity shift where you're trying to figure out, okay, who am I am now without that? Or who am I now without that? And, uh, what does that look like? And so when you have that, it's hard to, to keep just being friends. And I think you gotta have some, some distance.
Speaker 1:No, I think I know where you're going with this because how do you, after you've imagined this future together, how, how do you take that out of the equation and just live with reality when you've built up a dream,
Speaker 2:Especially when you're still interacting with them. Right. So I, I, you, because you're trying to be friends, you you're like we had such a great thing. Okay. It's not going to be life together as a, you know, married couple or whatever, but, oh, we have so much together, so much history and we clearly, you know, supported each other and, and we could still have that and, and share that together. But it, when you're still in the phase of being wrapped up in this other vision, I think it's just too hurtful. It's too hard to separate those things, uh, too painful. So I, I, I do understand when sometimes people say, no, I, I, I can't just be friends. Just friends is not good enough. I've heard that before. I've said that before. So I totally sympathize and empathize with that. It's a different, I think angle on, can men and women be friends, cuz it's not about, oh, I can't be friends. Cause I wanna bang this person so bad. Right.
Speaker 1:Or
Speaker 2:Whatever. It's more like, I can't be friends with you right now because I'm too much invested in
Speaker 1:What,
Speaker 2:What we had and what we thought, what I thought and what we have at one point, maybe both thought we were gonna share it again.
Speaker 1:Oh, I've only seen that play out in romcoms in my life. I've never, I've never experienced it because whenever my, my important, you know, longstanding relationships have ended, it's been like a clean break pretty much. And I don't know, in some cases maybe that's for the best. Um, but it is a lovely thought, you know, and I, and I have, you know, really taken a liking to several men that I've gone out on dates with and stuff, and kind of been able to keep in touch with them or kind of see their life kind of play out, you know, know through social media and stuff. And it is a gift, you know, to be able to kind of keep tabs on somebody that you care about in whatever way, even if it, if it is just something that, you know, uh, a, a short lived dating relationship, you still are a little bit invested. And I don't, I'm really, that's how my, my brain and my heart work.
Speaker 2:No, absolutely. That's kind of where I would pivot to next is I do have a number of, um, relationships I can think of. Like I said, that where I have kept in touch with X's as friends, um, somebody I'll call Wichita, somebody I'll call Prague, somebody call high school. These are just quick throw away names. But, uh, um, you know, these are all people that I've kept in touch with and, uh, greater or lesser extensor. It might be cyclical where we, we actually meet up, um, once or once in a while, or it's more like you said, social media, keeping in touch, uh, following what they're doing or an occasional text message when something happens in their life or vice versa. Um, but those are all nice to have because you have these shared experiences with people that go back and, um, was that connection.
Speaker 1:And when things end, just because, you know, just because it wasn't, it's not, you it's me, whatever, you know what I mean? And you still really care about the person. It's a wonderful thing to be able to continue that and without expectation of anything of getting back together or, or whatever, which I think maybe that's a big reason why a lot of people do make a clean break because they don't want, they want to make it very clear. You know what I mean? One or the other person just is like, no, we are, we are over because they don't trust that the other person doesn't have intentions. Yeah. You know? Um, do you wanna talk, oh, go ahead.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I was gonna kind of play off of, I guess a little bit of both of these situations. So the first person I talked about Chicago, uh, you know, after my divorce and I kind of, uh, my approach to that at some point was to just post it on Facebook. I was like, this is gonna come up repeatedly. I'm gonna just get it out there. Here's where we are. Uh, just so you know, you know, and obviously Facebook's not the only way to disseminate information. Sure.
Speaker 1:But
Speaker 2:People didn't didn't get it, but it was also a whole lot of people that I would've never talked to directly that would've heard it through somebody else or not found out about it for years. So it was just, uh, it was a good way to, for me, I thought to just get ahead of it and say, you know, here's, here's, what's going on. We're both find people. We're still the same humans you used to know. Um, this is where we're at. And, uh, we'll, we'll have a blended family and so on. But one person that reached out to me was, was Chicago. And, uh, Chicago was in a new phase of her life. And, uh, um, it was really nice to reconnect that way. I think we'd had a couple texts over the years, um, you know, later on, but it was really nice to be able to, to just kind of touch base and back and forth, not nothing huge, but that just still seeing that yes, even after all these years, uh, we, we're still friendly. And, um, those folks that I mentioned, you know, high school, Wichita Prague, that, that, that continue to be in my life off and on, in different levels. Uh, I remember those being situations I mentioned earlier, where you worry about, or you realize you have conflict with a current relationship because you still have these other people. So I think I did this multiple times, at least once completely. Unwitingly where I just brought my then wife into a experience to meet this person that I used to have a relationship with. And I don't think I, she told me I did not prep her for this. I thought I had mentioned, but again,
Speaker 1:Get it
Speaker 2:From the point of view that I was like, yeah, but we're just friends. Like, I don't even think of that, you know?
Speaker 1:Right. It's completely innocent
Speaker 2:For me that I need to prep you, uh, you know, we're gonna meet with a bunch of these people and, and she's one of them. Right. And, uh, it's gonna be great. You're gonna like her and, and all these other people as well, but you know, to her point, which is also valid, Hey, heads up, we're, would've been nice. This made me feel very awkward and, and not cool. And you know, you're right. You're FA that's fair. Absolutely.
Speaker 1:You, that
Speaker 2:Was a learning point for me.
Speaker 1:I, I can appreciate that learning point. And quite frankly, where we are at, in life right now, those awkward situations are going to happen because in a lot of instances, uh, you know, everyone's sharing kids with their exes. So if you do, you know, have an extended relationship with someone, you will likely see an X at a drop off or at an event, or hopefully. So, yeah. You know, um, and then right then a new journey begins what that looks like.
Speaker 2:Well, the, I think the last one I'm thinking about just anecdotally with, uh, can men and women be friends is, uh, with my ex, with my kids, mom, um, you know, I was very heartbroken in this situation. It was, it was tough. Um, for me it was, it was kind of unexpected another castle in the cloud situation that had been in progress for some time Aw. You know, for, for, well over a decade. And, um, and we had two kids together, but at the end of the day, especially with, with sharing children, there was no choice. I mean, Shirley could have been extremely professional only. And there was definitely a point at which I realized I need to get some space here. Um, this, this has to change the, the heart has to adapt here a little bit. You, you, you know, intellectually, you're moving on logically, but now you gotta get your heart to follow. Um, but at still, this is someone who was in day in and day out for me and supported me all the time. And, and I, for her, I believe. Um, and I just think that you don't shut that off completely. So yeah, you can try to be a little more professional and a little bit more distanced, um, so that each person can continue with the new version of their lives, the direction, you know, that their, their life is going now, but why wouldn't you wanna still have a friendly relationship? Why wouldn't you wanna still be able to have funny texts once in a while that you know that each other will enjoy, so that the fact that you're going to be parenting together for the rest of your lives, regardless of whether you're in a, uh, romantic relationship, you should still be able to, to have that hopefully amicable him amicable situation with them to make it easier. Not only for each other gonna be working with each other all the time. I come to the decision that, um, being a single parent, a co-parent is not 50% of the work. It's 75% of the work, because now you are not only having your kids maybe half the time, but you're also communicating so much more in order to orchestrate. So why not be friends or at least friendly and understand each other from that angle? So I had a choice that I felt like also, we have made that, that transition pretty well.
Speaker 1:I, I commend you for it. And I think that is hashtag goals for everyone. Yeah. And
Speaker 2:It's not possible in every relationship are certainly not right outta the gate.
Speaker 1:No, but I love it for the two of you that you are reasonable, logical kind hearted people who want to get along for the sake of your children and the new state of your family. And it is a hundred percent the right thing to do. So after listening to the situation that you're, you know, you and your ex-wife have kind of evolved into, you know, being able to I'm sure. Talk about the kids in a loving way, share stories of what's happened at your homes and keep the communication open because you recognize the benefits as a, either new form that your family has taken. And I respect that so much. And I love that for the two of you. And let me tell you just as a single woman dating single dads, it's exactly what I look for and hope for, because it's so less comp allocated than situations when you meet someone and it's really tumultuous with their ex because I've lived that and I do not want to live it again. So I avoid it like the plague, because it's too much,
Speaker 2:You have firsthand experience of how hard that is to juggle. If your relationship becomes intertwined with all that, and you care deeply about them and theirs, and now you have to deal with some of the drama. And again, I, I don't wanna come at this. Like, I think it's so hard to understand how things can get difficult in a relationship and parenting and, and then having blended families. I, I know all of that can bring up so many difficulties and, and maybe you didn't have the best chemistry to begin with. This happens with people, you know, have the, not the other, or they have this, but not that there's so many ways that things can go wrong. So I, I definitely feel very lucky. Uh, it made, took a little evolution to get there, I suppose, but I
Speaker 1:Lucky and that's, and it made change and wax and Wayne over the years too. Right. You know, but, and that's okay. I mean, that's life and that's people. And, um, that's, you know, that's part of this, you know, so obviously as I've gone on first or second dates, and we've kind of talked through where we're at in life now and what that looks like, and we talk about some of these dynamics with children and X's while I do watch or flags and kind of see, it's also something to kind of take with a grain of salt, especially when things are fresh, because as we just acknowledged, um, it is a journey and things change and evolve and bounce back and forth over the course of time. But I think in general, it typically is everyone's goal, right? To come away from a divorce when you, or a child in a manner that if you can't, um, be friends and share those sweet moments in life for the sake of your children and be it, you know, combined to birthday parties, or, you know, maybe that's a stretch goal for some, if you can at least have that business, like, you know, relationship that you kind of mentioned that sometimes you do kind of have to fall back on where we just talk about logistics and finances and things because things got too emotional. I think that's okay, too. What you want to avoid is that your hell that can come from two people that despise each other or despise you. So, yeah.
Speaker 2:I, I, I think that makes a lot of sense. And then there's, there's also the effect that I have come to appreciate both logically and real life experience, where sometimes you're just gonna take these hits that you never see coming. So there's gonna be this cycle. Um, and I've read about this. I've experienced this where, okay, we are in a good place. This is, this is going smooth. This part of my life, where these relationships are working, we've got a system, we've got an order, uh, and then, and boom, uh, your kid has a preschool graduation and you're like hiding the tears inside your self, you know, or whatever, just something where something hits you wrong and you even knew it was gonna happen. And then when in the moment it feels different. So totally that's a struggle that you just have to prepare yourself for, I think, and come to peace with that. That's part of the journey too.
Speaker 1:You're so right. And sometimes divorce brings out, you know, not just divorce itself, but everything you go through in that big transition in life, it brings out qualities and characteristics in your significant other that you never saw coming sometimes and different parts of their personality and character. And you're like, wait, you've never been like that as a mother, before, or a father before. Why, where is this coming from? And then I think another interesting point or dynamic that I have experienced is this disillusionment that I've heard and seen in men's voices when I'm dating them and everything is LA LA land. And it's so fun and exciting, and things are going really well. I've had this happen at least two times that I can think of. And they're so, you know, the men that I've dated are so proud of the relationship that they've built or maintained with their ex you know, their significant other, oh, we spent Christmas morning together. The kids just love it. And I'm like, it's real easy until one of you gets a new, significant other, and then it all goes to hell most of the time. I mean, it, doesn't always, there are plenty of scenarios where three people, you know, can co-parent really well or four people or whatever, but it, it definitely gets more complicated when, you know, obviously as you add more personalities and people into the children's lives or test the waters
Speaker 2:That could crop up yes. That happens for some humans. I've heard of it. I dunno.
Speaker 1:It can, it can happen. I mean, unfortunately
Speaker 2:Go ahead.
Speaker 1:No, you,
Speaker 2:No, I was just gonna, I really liked one of the things that you, you brought up that I, I don't think I had really considered in this way, and that is the new personality facets or traits or things that may occur between you and your ex as parents, or as people now, um, I've been thinking about that a lot from the perspective, you know, maybe selfishly, maybe self preservation, but, um, yeah. Well I'm in this new world, so what, what do I make of that? What's the plus. So I'm sure I'm exhibiting a lot of new personality traits and, and, uh, doing things that, that seem uncharacteristic compared to who I was in that relationship, but I'm sure she is as well. And I have seen some of those things and it is a little bit of a shock, but it's also like, well, that's part of why this is happening, right. Is, is there is a need good point Bridge and grow in different ways. And we do change who we are like it or not. Everybody does in a relationship you have to, to, to try to cater to the relationship and make it grow to at least to some extent. And so it's completely agree, completely surprising that both of you will probably change a little. And some of that at least is good.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. That was so well said, Eric really, really, really solid point. It it's not all bad. Right. And one, one thing that that always kind of gets under my skin whenever I'm talking to other people, going through separation and divorce is when they start accusing their ex of the, well, now he's stepping up now, he's the dad that he alwa you know, that he never was before or vice versa. Well, now she seems to be super involved in basketball. She never went to a practice before this, you know? And to your point, how about just be happy for the kids when the other parent maybe exhibits more interest or develops a deeper bond because it happens a lot. Yeah. It hap I, I find that a lot of times when a parent gets one-on-one attention or time with the child, without the other parent monitoring that relat up or controlling it, things change. And oftentimes it's for the better,
Speaker 2:That is huge. I agree with that a a hundred percent, because even in a loving relationship where you have parents and kids, that there's usually this dynamic, and it's not necessarily intentional, but I saw it in my relationship. I feel like my relationship with my kids has grown up. I feel like I've always been a, the involved father, but, um, I feel like my relationship has grown because when mom was around, it was hard to not see mom was around. Right. And so a lot of attention went there. And so over time, or, or just my nature, I wasn't as involved because I felt like I couldn't compete sometimes. Um, or I couldn't pull them off mom to do something else or this or that. Um, so I mean, that's just one example, but like you said, there's so many ways that that can come up. It might you come up because, oh, wow. I've got 50% of the time or whatever it is. I, I have to, I need to make sure that my kids, but I think like you said, a big part of it is that that relationship dynamic has changed and allowed that extra time now with, without the other parent in the room. And, and that, then you get to focus more on what you are as a parent.
Speaker 1:I love that. I mean, it's kind of one of those mindset shifts that we can make if we want to. Right. And it sounds like you have, you know, I'm given this amount of time with my kids. I wanna make the most of it. And I wanna be for them and all of that instead of, oh, what do I do now? I've got'em on Wednesday night and what am I going? You know what I mean? Like, well, that's
Speaker 2:Also really easy to be threatened by the other parent that is, oh crap. They took'em to worlds of fun or Disney, or, um, they did this really cool craft thing, or, oh my God now, you know, but it, it again, be happy for the, the kids and recognize that, that, that parent is doing awesome things for them that are great memories and great, you know, relationship building. And then you can also do things it's not about competing. It's just about both being able to have your relationships with their kids. And they know that you're still on the same page, hopefully as a team parenting. It's not, it doesn't have to be totally individualistic. I do my thing. You do your thing, that's it, you
Speaker 1:Know, totally agree. Yeah. And I, I mean, I will say, I, I don't think a lot about Lane's dad because we don't live closely and now she drives herself to and from. And so like, it's all changed over the years. Um, we have always just had a business relationship, but I will say over the past few years before lane started doing the driving whenever she was learning to drive, uh, like, especially then. So over the last year when she was 15, um, she would drive from my door, you know, our house to, um, Starbucks, meet her dad. And then she would get in his vehicle and drive him home, you know, the rest of the way. And he, and I kind of struck up that dynamic again, where we, all of our conversation was based on Laney and how she was doing with her driving, but it felt good and healthy. And who else would know what that felt like teaching her to drive, but him know, right.
Speaker 2:You're wrong in the same direction. Even if you have baggage and history good and bad, but now it's about something positive that you both share and you both have deep insight into that. Nobody else really can get on that level.
Speaker 1:Yes. And I mean, it's kind of ridiculous in a lot of ways that it took us that long and there were other things in play. It's not that we didn't get along. There's just like zero communication. It just wasn't even necessary. Like, we, we never argued about anything. It was just like, if there was a request like, Hey, we wanna take her on vacation this week. I would just be like, sure. You know, I mean, that's it like, we just never, but really,
Speaker 2:But you weren't doing, uh, cuz cuz you were in separate towns. Right. So it wasn't like you're juggling soccer schedules, right. Or, you know, recitals or day to day, it was more okay. You, you have her this time. I have her this time two different towns. Yeah. So that probably breaks up a little bit of the necessary coordination that can uh, does, can happen.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. I know. And I mean, in talking to other, you know, local families here, it happened a lot during COVID like, you know, those boundaries of rules in each other's and maintaining amicable, you know, friendships was put to the test a lot with a lot of people. I know like, well, you know, cause there's all this blame involved. Like will she let somebody come over? And then she let her boyfriend stay and then, you know what I mean? And everything's gotten kind of haywire, um, when you're involved in each other's day to day. But yeah, it's a little bit different in my situation when there's just not the necessity of, you know, um, communicating so frequently, I guess.
Speaker 2:Well, it's exciting to, to hear that you shared that because that's, that's a huge part of her life and now it's part of your shared experience together in her life. So I, I think that's awesome.
Speaker 1:I do too. Thank you. Um, do you want to talk about other friendships kind of the next thing on the docket?
Speaker 2:Um, I, I guess I would just say that, um, you know, going back to the original question, can men and women be friends or this sort of, you know, possible attraction? Is there always an attraction? I, I'm not sure if I can categorically say in any given male, female friendship that I've had, that nobody at any time ever had any sort of sexual attention back and forth, um, because you may know if you do, even if, you know, you don't, you don't know if they do for sure. Um, and that's, to me, I go back to it like, well maybe it doesn't matter, you know, as long as
Speaker 1:I love that lines
Speaker 2:Are being
Speaker 1:Philosophy is a great one. Yeah.
Speaker 2:People are involved and it changes you're, but if lines aren't being crossed, maybe it's okay. Maybe it doesn't matter. You know? And
Speaker 1:I completely agree. Some of my most fun friendships were with my boyfriend's friends, like in college. And I mean, it was ridiculous, the amount of flirting that I did with his friends and they did with me and I mean touching even and whatever, cuz we're young and there was more of that. Like, it wouldn't be appropriate now, but like in college it totally like anything went,
Speaker 2:It wasn't jealous. There was a lot of handsy, crazy, you know, flirty, you know, sort of, yeah, that, and
Speaker 1:I lived in like a real world house with guys and girls and we were, I mean I was in a relationship. Um, but I was friends with all the other guys in the house and likewise, and yes, there was a ton of that sexual tension with everyone that came in and out of that house. Right. It was just kind of inherent and known, but nobody was threatened or cared. It didn't seem to really, you know, cross any lines or, or break up, you know, any friendships or relat or anything. It was just part of it. And then like in my adult life, um, kinda the same way. I mean my, my male friends up until the time of divorce were my friend's husbands. I mean, that's who I was around, you know? And then coworkers. Yeah. You know, and those were some of my best friends still are through the years. And most of my male coworker friends are married. So that almost makes in some ways the friendship safer, you know what I mean? Because I, I know that they love and respect their wives. So they're never going to cross a line and I would never do that either. So it it's almost easier to be friends. Well,
Speaker 2:I, I think it, it really comes down to respect and understanding yourself well enough. I mean, this does put a little bit of onus on the individual to understand that if they are a think they're abusing someone and their, their trust, their friendship, their heartstrings, they should be aware of that. But then there's also on you as the individual, if that's happening to you and it it's too hard, um, you're gonna have to or get off the pot. I'm sorry, but you're gonna have to either say, listen, this is where I really am. I'm sorry, it's gonna might mess up our friendship, but uh, we gonna take this further or go, I can't do this. You know, I've been in that situation as well. This is too hard. Um, I, I, I love you as a friend, but I might like you as more than that and, and it's not working. So, um, I, I think if you're both a okay, with continuing the status quo and nobody's getting hurt, then, then there's a lot of fun in that potentially.
Speaker 1:I completely agree. I totally agree. Yeah. Friend,
Speaker 2:Zone,
Speaker 1:Friend zone, look out,
Speaker 2:We talk a little bit about this off screen,
Speaker 1:Right? Yeah. I definitely am guilty of putting a lot of my male friends in the friend zone did this a in high school, you know, with my cuz I had a boyfriend. And so like anyone else who approached me, it was a very clear line in the sand. You were on the friend zone, you know? Um, and then really, as I've kind of been on this, you know, path for the last, whatever couple of years now, but especially since I've been so active in networking with singles and going out a lot and all of that, I've kind of done the same thing. I've like drawn this line and the sand that I'm like, we are friends and this is the part of my life that, that we fit to. And then my dating life is like mysterious and over here and kind of, non-existent a lot of the time, which is totally true. Like, yeah,
Speaker 2:Well this, this happened to me, I think a lot more in, uh, in college and maybe, uh, uh, shortly after I'm, I'm sure it's happened off and on throughout, but that, that's where I think of a lots, some people that I was close with, I was always pretty spitting with. I always hope things would go further and we'd spend a lot of time together. Uh, and we would share and, and support each other and have laughs and stuff. But there was always that, oh man, why can't we go further? This must be working better for her than it is for me.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I think, I think the friend zone almost always applies to men. And I think that's why my female friend wanted me to do this episode so bad because this was her train of thought. Like she's had that happen a lot where, and in fact, this friend of mine has a couple of great stories where she did take things in a, in a romantic relationship. And it wasn't college with a couple of friends actually to of my close friends have had this happen and it did ruin the friendship. It everything up, you know,
Speaker 2:From that other person's perspective. And I, I have seen it go the other way. I've been in a situation where, you know, in situations where it was the woman that was probably more into me than I was in into her in that way. Uh, but we were good friends, but you know, it can be a situation where it's gonna blow up anyway, you know, if you don't pursue or, or kick the tires on the romantic angle, um, how long is this gonna go on before the other person sort of implodes or says, I can't handle this. Um, and it's not fair to them either. So yeah. You know, go as long as you can, as long as you both enjoying the friend thing, but right. Yeah. I, I mean, it is a factor it can add, I'm not gonna call it poison, but it can add a difficult angle to the relationship that will derail it one way or the other it's gonna, it's gonna move at a different track. Right. You're either leav,
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Or you're gonna try that romantic thing, you know, and maybe you come back after that. Some people have recovered from that. They're like, yeah, we tried that. We were no good at that.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I, I believe that can happen to yeah, exactly. Especially if it, if they do try to do the friends with benefits thing or something, it's like, eh, yeah, no, that didn't work. You know, it was one drunk at night or, or whatever, which I don't know if that's a whole different episode or not. Do you wanna talk to the friends with benefits or save it for a different,
Speaker 2:I think we should save it for, uh, another day, a whole can of worm slash goodness. Uh,
Speaker 1:I totally agree. I totally agree. That's a great one. So have we, have we come to any conclusions? I think that you summarized it really well in our outline. And, um, you spoke to it kind of early on in the podcast too. Well,
Speaker 2:Just, just, I mean, I think that it there's very possible that there could be a, a, a sexual romantic angle in a lot of friendships that, that we either know or don't acknowledge, but that's not necess necessarily a problem. You, you it's situational, you know? And so in some cases it may actually add, like you said to the friendship, it may add a certain, I don't know, spice or, or angle, um, that, that gives you new perspective. It makes it fun, but it's not dangerous. It's not hard on someone's feelings, et cetera,
Speaker 1:Manipulative. Yeah. Malicious
Speaker 2:A third that somehow involved, you know?
Speaker 1:Yeah. And I think it's played out again. I watch a lot of romantic comedies and I think that that plot line is played out a lot. It's usually the woman is like playing coy with a guy that's just totally head over heels for her. And she totally abuses him and uses him for whatever she can get emotional support and whatever. And then at the end to the day she breaks his heart because he's not the guy for her. And then sometimes it works its way back around and he becomes the love of her life. And then sometimes she's, you know, goes off and it's the villain now. Right.
Speaker 2:We got a villain in the movie. We couldn't be like, oh, well she was just a person. And she might have been a little flawed, like all of us, but, uh, yeah,
Speaker 1:Yeah. Or the villain is the, you know, super handsome stud jock that comes outta nowhere that steals her heart and he's an. And then she either figures it out or she doesn't. Right. Yep. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, that, that sounds like you had another episode. It sounds like you have maybe more material left,
Speaker 1:Which is such a good thing because
Speaker 2:However many episodes
Speaker 1:I, no, I mean really when it comes to relationships, can we ever run out of stuff to talk about? I don't think so. I don't think so. I don't, we've got friends with benefits. We wanted to talk about you term it for me, the poly thing. I'm, I'm still exploring
Speaker 2:The terminology. I think I came across a term the other day, uh, poly solo or so something like that, but, uh, just this idea that, um, monogamy in, in its various forms are especially traditionally is not the only way to approach life and, and a lot of us, uh, like so many social paradigms, just sort of feel like it is, it has to be, this is the only way you can live life. And if you do anything different, anything, non-traditional, nobody gets it. It's wrong, it's evil. It it's, uh, weird, whatever. So I think there are different approaches and friends with benefits is one there's, there's just a lot of things I think we could, uh, talk about and I'm sure come to so many understandings. Right. Agree with it suddenly,
Speaker 1:Or at least like we'll all learn something new. Yeah. Cause yeah, totally. Well, we'll do our research and we'll come back with that
Speaker 2:Sounds
Speaker 1:Good. Poly solo, poly amorous, poly, whatever, whatever, whatever. Okay. Well, thank you so much, Eric, for spending some time with me recording this evening, talking about a very important subject because I like you really do value my friendships and relationships with the opposite sex. I think that, you know, those relationships add so much to my life. Um, even if it's not sex.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Well, it's been a pleasure. Thank you for having me on.
Speaker 1:Thanks Eric. I don't know what your biggest takeaway is from this conversation between Eric and me, but I think one of my favorite points that Eric made was does it even matter if there is underlying sexual tension between men and women in a friendship? Isn't that? What makes it kind of fun and interesting and different than some of your other friendships? I think I like that. Thanks so much for listening to episode 42, I'll have what they're having. Can men and women be friends. If you are enjoying the show, please consider giving me a rating on apple or Spotify, click five stars. If you're enjoying and please do share the podcast with your friends, send the link to someone new today to help spread a little more joy, happiness, to more singles like us. And up next episode, 43, I gotta have faith.